Timing for Shows

[scrumpy]

This is in response to snute's question asking me for my growing methods.

Now we all know that in an ideal world, if you stop your dahlias on the first of July, they will then form loads of side shoots in the leaf axils, and these shoots will all flower perfectly on the 25th of August.
And if you stop them on the 8th of July then they will all be in flower on the 1st of September.
And so on.
Well it soon became obvious when I first started growing them that none of the above happened. Not quite ready, or just finished flowering were always the excuses to be found around the show benches.
So it was time for something different and rather than wait for the ideal flower to form from the crown bud, I'd speed nature along a bit by stopping the plants very early and then using the knockback method to grow all my blooms. This method is used for
all my miniatures smalls and mediums. Giants, I try to get the blooms in flower using stopping dates only, but when that goes wrong, I've managed to get reasonable entries from growing off a wing bud.
The first stage is getting the right sized plant to begin with, so the first picture is how I like the plant to look when I stop it. Different varieties show different growing characteristics, but in my case, cuttings taken up to 12th April usually end up like the one shown and that is when I stop them. Everything is stopped by the middle of May, and stopping can be from the end of April up to that date.




Now in the ideal world, you've stopped your plants, and your plants all produce 6 perfect side shoots in the leaf axils for the six blooms you want on your plant, which will grow nicely along to form your buds. Well that never happens, so again a little help is needed and the double stop is used. The variety below is Ruskin Bride, a medium semi cactus, which I want to grow 8 up. As you can see, only 4 side shoots formed, and buds were starting to show ( this is Mid June) so I pinched out the growing tip and as you can see, side shoots are developing nicely so one of those shoots will produce the bloom I want.




Now we get to the real nitty gritty. You have stopped your plants early, you have got your stems , and they all have buds like the ones shown below. I've numbered them as can be seen
1, Crown bud..the best
2 and 3 are wing buds
4 Leaf axil bud

When it comes to selecting wing buds,as i'll explain, choose the one with a leaf below the bud, number 3. That produces the best flower.






So how do you select the bud to flower.
Well it's all a bit of trial and error to begin with, but after a few years you can go along the beds, look at the buds and predict which ones to choose.
Basically, all of the buds shown will produce a flower.
Crown bud number 1 will be the best, and a bud that size should take about 20 days to be ready. So you look at your show date and if it's in 20 days time then that's the bud to allow to flower and all the others are removed. If your show date is in 27 days time then you'd remove the crown bud and allow bud number 3 to grow, as a bud that size takes that long to develop. Now if your show is 35 days away, then buds 1,2,and 3 are removed allowing number 4 to develop. And that is it. Nice and easy

The days I've given are an example. They aren't far out, but the only way to learn is by tying a plant label to the buds you choose , write the date, and record when it flowers. You'll soon find that there isn't a lot of difference between the smalls and mediums, so if you try the 25 day rule, ie, a bud the size of a pea will be in full bloom in 25 days you won't be far out.
Now I have described one stem on one plant. I grow 6 plants, each with 6 stems, so that's 36 buds to sort out. They will all be at slightly different stages, some a bit further on. some a bit further behind, but from those plants you can say that there will be at least one good one on each plant on the day you want and that's all you need.
The important bit is to always choose the same sized bud as your reference when recording how long it takes to flower for future reference.
So for Shrewsbury show, 11th August, I'll be removing buds from early July and will finish by the 20th July, and the blooms tend to be in flower from 4 days before to 4 days after, depending on the weather of course.
And that's it.

I may be wrong, but I think most growers use the knockback method in some form or another, so perhaps Tel and DC could help you for the later shows as I haven't a clue how to grow them
for September shows, apart from relying on the 2nd flush that I used to do.

[Tel]

If i were growing for the one show, that is the kind of thing i would be doing. There is exceptions to what scrupy is saying about timing on pea size buds though, i find where i am depending on the weather i find some of mine can take 30 to 32 days to flower from that stage.
Just like scrumpy says keep records of when your plants were stopped, length of time taken on average from bud to flower.
I do not aim for one show i aim for a 5 week period end of Aug to the end of Sept and i grow enough plants of each variety so my bud taking does not have to be as accurate has scrumpy.
For me if i stop half of my plants the last week in June and the rest in the first weekend in July, gives me weather permitting ie damping off ( marking on the blooms) enough to cover all my shows.
The two varieties that do not fit in with the above i find are Kenora Challenger and Mary's Jomanda they are stopped in the 1st and 2nd weeks of July because i find they flower to early for me other wise.

[snute2008]

This is fantastic stuff scrumpy and tel, really really helpful. This is real learning curve for me and I appreciate all the advice.

My plants are a little on the small side still but have been stopped at end of May. Most are planted out some I have not been able to plant out yet so have potted up into 5" pots to hopefully keep them going.

[dcdahlia]

I use the knockback method If a variety looks like it is going to flower to early this usually happens with the jomanda's when I use them as smalls and only stop them once,as minatures I double stop them so I can grow them 16/20 up.I double stop some varieties for timing purposes for instance ryecroft jan and leopold chloe which I grow 9 up and 7 up but still double stop or they will be flowered out before september.Others I double stop are dikara superb,hillcrest divine and grenador pastelle all so I can get the stems needed to keep the size down.
Of the plants I only stop once the late flowering kiwi gloria is the first I stop 1st week in june along with any giants after that most other varieties get stopped 3rd week in june apart from the early flowering ruskin michelle which I stop last week in june.I will also start giving plants there second stop last week in june through to the fisrt week in july.These plants will have been stopped in there pots last week in may.The last plants to be stopped are jomanda and marys jomanda( grown as smalls) 2nd week in july.
But I am sure tel and scrumpy agree no two seasons are the same and the weather as a big say.

[scrumpy]

Jun 21, 2012 9:23:58 GMT snute2008 said:

This is fantastic stuff scrumpy and tel, really really helpful. This is real learning curve for me and I appreciate all the advice.

My plants are a little on the small side still but have been stopped at end of May. Most are planted out some I have not been able to plant out yet so have potted up into 5" pots to hopefully keep them going.

The ones you have stopped already will give you a good guide as they should be ready for your 12th and 19th August shows.

as Tel says, I go for the one show only now, but in my youth
I did 4 , the last one being the 12th of September. The same plants were used for all the shows, with the September shows blooms coming from the 2nd flush for the smalls and mediums, and later stops for the giants.
Again, as Tel says, timing of the bud will vary from area to area,
and take a little longer as the season progresses. All i'll say is, don't lose your little black book where you have recorded how long it takes

[Lou78W]

Jun 21, 2012 18:49:39 GMT scrumpy said:

Jun 21, 2012 9:23:58 GMT snute2008 said:

This is fantastic stuff scrumpy and tel, really really helpful. This is real learning curve for me and I appreciate all the advice.

My plants are a little on the small side still but have been stopped at end of May. Most are planted out some I have not been able to plant out yet so have potted up into 5" pots to hopefully keep them going.

The ones you have stopped already will give you a good guide as they should be ready for your 12th and 19th August shows.

as Tel says, I go for the one show only now, but in my youth
I did 4 , the last one being the 12th of September. The same plants were used for all the shows, with the September shows blooms coming from the 2nd flush for the smalls and mediums, and later stops for the giants.
Again, as Tel says, timing of the bud will vary from area to area,
and take a little longer as the season progresses. All i'll say is, don't lose your little black book where you have recorded how long it takes

Glad I'm not the only one

[snute2008]

Scrumpy, can I check with you please. I stopped all my plants at end of May by taking out the growing tip. All had two pairs of leaves. I now realise that I need to stop again as two pairs of leaves will only give me four stems and for poms I need more than that - is that right?

Is there a rule of thumb of how many stems to grow for various varieties or is it trial and error?

Thanks.

[scrumpy]

Yes, you need to stop again. What you will be doing is the double stop method. See the Ruskin Bride above. I'll let as many laterals develop on that and come mid July choose the ones with buds on them that have a chance to be in bloom in August...if any, then cut the rest off.
You need at least 3 pairs of leaves I think before you stop them again. As I don't use this method very often Tel or DC will have to confirm, but I only ever double stop the strongest stems. What you then do is let the laterals grow from these. Say you get 10 laterals growing, let them all grow until buds start developing. Then you can reduce the laterals to the number you want.
There is no rule as to how many laterals you grow of each variety.
Depends entirely on your soil I reckon.
For smalls and mediums I cannot grow more than 6 up, as they call it, on the majority of my plants.
Some that I grow 5 up, others grow 8.
You have to find out for yourself unfortunately.

[scrumpy]

Only a week or so away from choosing the buds to flower for Shrewsbury. The show starts the 10th August, so i'll be aiming to cut all my blooms 9th August. It's the earliest it's been for a long time. I could have done with an extra few days I reckon.
So i'll be looking for suitable buds from about the 13th to the 17th July.

Am spending today tying them in and checking for the buds and it looks as if quite a few varieties i'll have a lot of choice. I'm going to struggle on Ruskin Andrea. They will be too big, so next year it will be an early double stop. Not all will be lost though, I think I will grow them on for the Nationals.
Oakwood Goldcrest looks as though all blooms will be from the main crown bud, so they should be quite interesting.
Gillwood Terry G also will be a mixture of crown and side buds.
The rest of the smalls will all be side buds.

As for Minley Carol, Goodness knows how they will be. All i'm doing is cutting off the crown buds when I see them. Then I'll just let everything grow and remove the odd bit here and there. Never grown poms before so very hit and miss

[scrumpy]

So here is a typical plant. Variety is Barbary Melody.
I've attempted to mark the buds. On the left is number 1, which i've deliberateley allowed to flower early as I want to see it in all it's glory. Should be ready the end of the month. To the right of it you can see number 2 that has 4 buds showing. The one I'll choose is the one arrowed, and this will be ready i'd say 10 days later. This is repeated throughout the plants until eventually I have the right number on each plant, able to cover about 7 days.

[marynz]

There is a man with a Facebook Dahlia group who shares some interesting information on timing Dahlias for shows. This is his leaf count method, a little different from what is above, but probably of interest to some of you: www.ojaste.com/docs/The%20Leaf%20Count%20Method%20for%20Dahlia%20Timing,%20Final.pdf

Martin's group, for any Facebook people, is at www.facebook.com/groups/363854624030/ .

[scrumpy]

From what I can see it is more or less the same, except I use side buds from the laterals to get the blooms I want if the main bud is too early.

His method involves stopping , then double stopping where necessary, then thinning the laterals from the double stop and allowing the terminal bud to develop from the selected laterals. Which is what most growers do over here.

Trouble was this year the weather messed the above up completely as everything was so far behind, and I don't think his method would have improved things. The method seems to rely on leaf growth. If there is no leaf growth then you can't get leaf sets, and laterals, etc, etc.

My method relies entirely on producing side buds early and knocking back the side buds to get the bloom . You may not get the best bloom that way, but at least you can get some.
No way would I have had a single bloom for my show, which is early for dahlias over here, had I followed any other method.
Even then I was struggling to get my entries.

Nice to read though...gonna take some paracetamol now to clear my head