Dahlia shopping...?

[dahliadave]

Raising our own seedlings is not something we have done apart from a couple of garden varieties that were totally chance seedlings as opposed to being attempted crosses. Over the years we have always had an association with a number of amateur breeders who have entrusted us to build up stock and put out varieties on their behalf. We put out all of the late Alan Dunlop's varieties (prefixed Davenport-the street on which he lived) and the late Arthur Lashlie's Chrichton varieties. More recently we have introduced varieties from Gordon Hodgson, Ian Hill and Graham Hill to name just a few. We don't just look at varieties purely for exhibition as many of our customers just love growing good varieties of Dahlias for the garden. Times have changed a lot though. New varieties aren't as sought after as they were back in the 50's, 60's and early 70's when (some of you will have heard or read this before) new varieties were so south after that my Dad was often offered £5 a tuber by people who wanted a variety a year before its official release. £5 a tuber in 1966 was a ridiculous amount of money at todays prices-£85.00! White Kerkrade in 1968 would cost you nearly £13.00 a plant today!

The thing back then is that Dahlia development was moving much more rapidly I believe than it is now. Certain classifications still have room for improvement but others are full of almost perfect varieties- so much so that there is little room for improvement though I am quite happy to re-consider!  

[Moonlight]

Oct 28, 2014 12:31:46 GMT ian said:

Dave I am always interested in all Dahlias as you say Medium decs there are some good ones Millennium , Kismet, Andrea Clarke and a couple new ones they all have their faults and are a little harder to grow than most.but medium decs are the Cinderella class. Charlie 4 and Charlie 3 or Alf's Charlie 4 are easy to grow and get them on the bench, they do not have much form at all from the front on the floor they are not too bad but look from the side or on the bench they have very poor form. Yes it is a class that can be added too.
Moonlight growers like to see their cultivars in the classified and taking blooms for classification is one way, they are not always added, but as I say if they are good or winning quite often then the classification committee will pick them up anyway.

I think that the nds classification is at times restrictive and unfair, particularly when it comes to dual classification. For example, if grown well a Trooper Dan can be grown as a Giant which could be a potential exhibitors choice. It could be the most perfectly formed giant and would be disqualified / NAS for not being a variety that has been classified as a dual variety but then a grower of Kenora Valentine can choose. I don't see how that could be considered fair.

Another example Weston Pirate, stunning dahlia (personal favourite ) which can frequently grow larger than a miniature and a good sized small would be NAS as it has been classified as a Miniature. Yet Weston Spanish Dancer has dual classification so can be exhibited in either.

This is one of my biggest frustrations about joining the NDS because things like this seem unfair. If Pirate is known to grow big then surely it should have been reclassified as a dual.

I don't understand why? Especially as in my understanding that a bloom that is 'a bit on a small size', it could still be exhibited.
Why can't the classification of cultivars be seen as guidance, if you want to grow a medium Dec then these varieties that are nationally considered Decs but if you were in a show and there was an empty class of small Dec and you had the best Small Dec in the world, stunning but as it is now it would be NAS when to be fair it should be judged as it is a Small Dec.

[scrumpy]

Oct 27, 2014 23:19:13 GMT ian said:

With the form of Charlie two have you had a drink David? Hehe that is the form you do not want now if you would have said the form of Millennium or Kismet well then that is another thing. I think you are ready for bed good night

So why is it that the varieties you mention don't win as much as the Charlies?

[ian]

They do when shown well. There are not very many National exhibitors rightly or wrongly who grow a medium unless you grow for that classification and exhibit in the class. I am sure this is going over the same grown. If you grow for championship classes if you have to show a medium then more than likely it will the poorest pointed vase as was the vase in the winning championship entry at Harrogate last year. This year the same winner used two miniatures. Now some championship do ask for a medium to be show ( Midlands one of there Championships) it's quite often that a vase of Pompons or miniature will score better points than a medium therefore a better option.

As I said Charlie two and Mascot Maya (corrects spelling) are easy to grow and growers are quite happy to grow them and put them in individual classes that's why they win but up against Millennium , Andrea Clarke and Kismet grown well they will be a poor runner up. Yes you do see it grown and shown in medium dec championships but only as a back up to get them in the class.

Good blooms for smaller shows usually the medium dec class only has one or two entries if any therefore a Cinderella class.

[ian]

Western Pirate is probably the best miniature cactus the cultivar very rarely goes oversize therefore is classified as a miniature. I do not agree with duel classification but we have it and usually to accommodate the southern growers as they find it difficult keeping the size down.

I find with most miniatures grow them very lean give them a base dressing the nothing else the first few weeks treat them as (in the main) as a pompon keep taking out the tips to increase the numbers so blooms are able to be shown within the classification.

The sizes of the classifications are only a guide and the rings are there to check the standards blooms do not have to be up to the ring big is not always beautiful and as the book says quality should overrule sheer size, but quality and size will or should always win.

[scrumpy]

Oct 28, 2014 13:48:41 GMT ian said:

They do when shown well. There are not very many National exhibitors rightly or wrongly who grow a medium unless you grow for that classification and exhibit in the class. I am sure this is going over the same grown. If you grow for championship classes if you have to show a medium then more than likely it will the poorest pointed vase as was the vase in the winning championship entry at Harrogate last year. This year the same winner used two miniatures. Now some championship do ask for a medium to be show ( Midlands one of there Championships) it's quite often that a vase of Pompons or miniature will score better points than a medium therefore a better option.

As I said Charlie two and Mascot Maya (corrects spelling) are easy to grow and growers are quite happy to grow them and put them in individual classes that's why they win but up against Millennium , Andrea Clarke and Kismet grown well they will be a poor runner up. Yes you do see it grown and shown in medium dec championships but only as a back up to get them in the class.

Good blooms for smaller shows usually the medium dec class only has one or two entries if any therefore a Cinderella class.

I'm going to try some new medium decs this year. I've got white Charlie Two, going to move Ryecroft magnum over the allotment,so may try the ones you say. How many up do you grow them?

[ian]

That's great, well kismet is best at 5-6 up with plenty of potash on bud selection Andrea Clarke (very tall grower 6-7 up Millennium 5 up kismet is 41/2 -5.foot tall Andrea is approx 6 foot millennium is about 31/2 pushing four foot.
Good luck ian

[Moonlight]

Oct 28, 2014 13:59:42 GMT ian said:

Western Pirate is probably the best miniature cactus the cultivar very rarely goes oversize therefore is classified as a miniature. I do not agree with duel classification but we have it and usually to accommodate the southern growers as they find it difficult keeping the size down.

I find with most miniatures grow them very lean give them a base dressing the nothing else the first few weeks treat them as (in the main) as a pompon keep taking out the tips to increase the numbers so blooms are able to be shown within the classification.

The sizes of the classifications are only a guide and the rings are there to check the standards blooms do not have to be up to the ring big is not always beautiful and as the book says quality should overrule sheer size, but quality and size will or should always win.

If certain varieties are allowed to be dual classification why not this one? If the dual classification helps Southerners as it is difficult to keep the size of those blooms down, why not Pirate?

I seriously don't understand why the whole pom ring size was allowed to be altered because poms grow better quality of bloom slightly larger when a decent miniature that has a tendency to grow larger than a miniature can't be given dual classification and it does round here, speaking as a Southerner.

I find your comments in green very interesting (interesting as in interesting, not as a negative or inferred criticism) your perspective as a judge, help people like me. I would never have considered that given 2 blooms both comfortably within ring size but one smaller than the other, that the size of the bloom as a factor in the points of a championship cup or a single bloom class.

Also why are you not a member of the classification committee, given your seniority at Harrogate etc? You are not the 1st person who does not agree with duel classification - my Dad also.

[ian]

Thank you for you comments Moonlight unfortunately I work full time. I have not got the time other than being on the Northern Committee. I would not want to be on the classification committee given it's present members. If you are not happy as a member with the classification write a letter to the classification committee.

I think it is as fair as it can be at present. There are one or two very good varieties I tend not to grow or back them up with another variety just in case they go oversize or a little to close to the ring.

[Sean]

I agree with dual classification until the variety has been showed and grown enough to find out whats it ideal classification is. Its interesting that westerton lillian is just classified as a large dec, but my friend john jack got it easily to a giant. Where as they took wildfire out the book so they didnt upset the southerners. As kenora wildfire is a natural large dec as you have to virtually grow one up to get the size of a giant such as sir alf.

Ian how did you get on with your tubers.

[Moonlight]

Oct 28, 2014 15:30:36 GMT ian said:

Thank you for you comments Moonlight unfortunately I work full time. I have not got the time other than being on the Northern Committee. I would not want to be on the classification committee given it's present members. If you are not happy as a member with the classification write a letter to the classification committee.

I think it is as fair as it can be at present. There are one or two very good varieties I tend not to grow or back them up with another variety just in case they go oversize or a little to close to the ring.

Is there a 50 / 50 split with those on the classification committee between North and South growers because there does seem to be a divide between the 2.

[ian]

There will always be a divide with a National Society we are the better growers hehe more National Champions in the North with the Southerners thinking they run everything and making a ba£&s of it. With members with the power not having grown the newer varieties for years or any Dahlias for years. There are sometimes members who have a say when they should keep their mouths firmly shut and let the ones in the know make the decisions on the committee

[Moonlight]

Oct 28, 2014 16:34:17 GMT ian said:

There will always be a divide with a National Society we are the better growers hehe more National Champions in the North with the Southerners thinking they run everything and making a ba£&s of it. With members with the power not having grown the newer varieties for years or any Dahlias for years. There are sometimes members who have a say when they should keep their mouths firmly shut and let the ones in the know make the decisions on the committee

Totally agree with the exception of the bit I avoid committees like the plague, too many people like the sound of their own voices and the politics within, I can't abide. Had a discussion re. the whole Jomanda / Mary's Jomanda v.s true dahlias of ball shape, with a member of the classification committee who said that he could see what we meant....

What is the point? If someone acknowledges an error what is the point of saying anything I agree.

[ian]

Well opinions are like ars&/£s everyone has one hehe

[Ian k]

Good Afternoon Moonlight have plenty of stock of Hillcrest Kismet if you want any grew 20 plants of it this year very good